Blogger: Janet Kobobel Grant
Location: Books & Such main office, Santa Rosa, Calif.
As the week has progressed, the FB suggestions you’ve submitted for blog topics has grown. I used several of the suggestions as a way to focus how I talked about my three most recent reading experiences, as well as my thoughts on traditional publishing vs. e-publishing. But it soon became apparent to me that I couldn’t squeeze another suggested topic in and hope to have any structure to my blogs. So I’ll refer back to the suggested topics as I consider future blog topics. Thanks to everyone and know I’ll be mindful of each idea.
I started out Monday by talking a little about the state of the industry, and I’d like to close the week with Kathleen Y’Barbo’s question (and Bill Giovannetti’s “I’ll second that motion”) about an agent’s perspective on free e-book downloads of an author’s backlist books.
When e-books first were offered for free, editors phoned me to explain how, from the publishers’ perspective, offering books for free generated a ton of sales for authors’ frontlist titles. And numbers were quoted that boggled the mind (tens of thousands of sales for individual authors). Many Books & Such clients have had e-books offered for free, and since I see all the royalty statements, I can unequivocally state than no one has had sales in the tens of thousands–regardless of name recognition. Several have had sales on other titles that apparently readers found as a result of the free download that ranged from 2,000 to 4,000 copies–at best. Some sales were in the hundreds. My conclusions?At this point, any marketing idea that can potentially sell several thousand copies is probably worth it, especially since this is a relatively inexpensive marketing device. The free offer does introduce new readers to the author, and those readers do more than just download the freebie. But I have to put a big caveat on that sentence: This concept is working at this point. After awhile, will readers have their devices so crammed with free books that they never buy additional titles? Will readers be selective in what they download for free, or just mindlessly download? If the latter, then the author has gained nothing in giving a book for free.
You might be asking, Why not offer a book for free? What’s the downside?
The downside is twofold. First, the practice teaches readers they can get lots of books–very good books–for free. Why pay when you can happily read for years to come for free? Second, you as the author have lost sales. Say 500 people downloaded your book for free. How many of them might have bought it? Certainly several would have.
Free is not a business plan; giving something for free only makes sense if there is a plan to: 1) make readers aware that the book is being given away; 2) clearly tie the free book to the authors’ other titles in that genre; 3) make it easy for the reader to find those other titles; 4) price the additional titles at a level that is enticing but not ridiculously low.
Another twist on the idea of free downloads is taking an author’s out-of-print project and offering it as an e-book only, not for free but for a low price (say, $2.99) to introduce that author to new readers. How’s it working? I don’t know yet. I have a few authors whom publishers are trying this with, but it’s too early to tell.
The more I think about e-publishing, the more nuances I see. Here are the questions I think every author has to ask before agreeing to a free or discounted sale of an e-book:
- Do I have enough other titles available like the title being considered for this plan to make sense?
- When is my next traditionally published book releasing? Will the release of a free e-book create synergy with that new title, or will it cannibalize sales?
- Are other titles by me planned to release as e-books in the same time period (within a few months) as the free title? (Especially consider this question if you have a new title that is releasing as an e-book only.)
- Do any of my current contracts inhibit me from offering an out-of-print title (such as in a noncompete clause)?
- Do I not only know that the book is out of print, but do I also have a letter from the previous publisher that transfer the rights back to the author?
- If I’m with more than one publisher, will the release help or hinder my relationship with each publishing house?
These questions, in a way, bring us full circle to my first post this week. As we straddle the e-publishing boat and the land of traditional publishing, we have to consider how one affects the other for our publishing career. How does the author create synergy and not competition with him or herself?
Now, tell us, as either an author or a reader, your experience with free e-books. Here are some questions to jumpstart the conversation:
- How many have you downloaded?
- Why did you download them?
- Have you read them?
- Did you buy any of that author’s books?
If you’re an author, did you see a rise in other titles’ sales based on a free book or an e-book only being offered? Please don’t tell us numbers because that is proprietary information for your publisher. (I talked about number earlier in this post because I’m generalizing based on a significant number of authors and publishing houses.) Just let us know if you saw an increase and if it was significant. Did you think it was worth it?
Sarah Thomas
When I first got my Kindle MOST of the books I downloaded were free (many classics). Mainly I was trying to get the hang of how ebooks work and to get a feel for whether I wanted to buy digital books or “real” books. Quite a few of those early books I downloaded just because they were free weren’t worth reading–and I don’t think I bought any other titles as a result of a freebie. Now I download the occaisonal free book when there’s something I truly want. I’ve learned about those via author websites and blogs.
Jill Kemerer
Brilliant post. So many variables to consider, and I agree with you that with the changing e-book market we can’t assume something that worked a year ago will work today.
It will be interesting to see the choices authors make in the upcoming months!
Laura Pauling
Okay, I’ll answer b/c I think this topic is fascinating.
I’ve downloaded about 4 or 5 free books. I’ve read one. But no, I didn’t purchase any more of the author’s books yet.
Reasons I haven’t read it yet?
1. Where I downloaded it – I have yet to figure out how to get it on my Kindle. It sits on my hard drive.
2. I downloaded it thinking maybe but my tbr pile was more interesting to me.
3. I downloaded it to read a few chapters when I have the time but I haven’t had the time yet.
4. One, I definitely will read, but it has to wait its turn.
But this is just me. I didn’t happen to download one that I loved enough or connected to enough to purchase more books. But it still could happen.
Lily Campbell
I travel a great deal and only carry a Kindle to read these days. On a recent trip to Europe, I bought one novel that takes place where I visited (and at 600 pages in length, the Kindle was a God-send) and downloaded probably a half dozen freebies.
I go through Kindle’s free list frequently and download books by people I know, or books I’ve wanted to read, storing them up for future travel.
Several recent “selections” included Kevin Leman’s “Sheet Music” and Dr. Richard Swenson’s “Margin.” I already own an old copy of Swenson’s book, so I felt like I was updating it and Leman’s book . . . he’s a funny guy and the subject matter was interesting to several in my family . . .
Here’s the deal. The 600 page novel I purchased was poorly written, but of interest because of the theme and location. The half-dozen freebies I downloaded were universally awful. I read the first chapter of each one on the airplane coming home–thinking I was settling in for a nice long reading spell–and deleted each one in turn. I don’t think I’ll bother with those authors and so their freebies had the opposite effect of the publisher’s hope.
It’s made me leery of freebies and I haven’t downloaded many since. In part because I’ve become more careful about what I choose. Whereas before I’d download anything that looked remotely interesting because, well, it was free, now I take the opposite tact. If I think I’ll read it, fine, but it’s lack of price doesn’t affect me any more.
Of course I haven’t bought anything either.
I think we have 200 books on our Kindles, the majority are free ones. “Pride and Prejudice” and the Bible are the two we’ve opened and read more than any others.
I guess I think of freebies as the equivalent of visiting the library–which I also do regularly. I can sample and discard easily.
Kate Barker
Janet,
Fantastic post. I really appreciate your thorough analysis of whether to offer free or discounted e-books.
Although I haven’t downloaded any free e-books yet…I think I’d be more inclined to agree with Lily, I’d be wondering if a freebie was going to be worth my time. I would treat it more like a library check-out or a purchase from a used book store. Prices for e-books don’t seem to be that expensive anyway.
Thanks again for a thought provoking post.
Michael K. Reynolds
Janet,
I couldn’t agree with you more wholeheartedly. The FREE e-book is a very bad idea. But worse, the worms are already out of the can and I’m afraid it might fall in the category of unfair expectations for writers.
There is nothing wrong with the Baskin Robbins pink spoon approach, where you give people a taste in the expectation that they’ll buy a scoop. But giving away a scoop hoping they’ll buy the other 30 flavors is faulty marketing strategy.
The problem with FREE is that people don’t value FREE. The biggest sales obstacle is not the $10 for an e-book, but that someone will commit their next precious reading time slot to your book. I have more than 700 free e-books downloaded, but I am limited on how many I can read (and ultimately how many I can buy). So through this approach you cheapen your long-term brand although you may see some short-term benefits.
A much better strategy would have been “value add” where a FREE short story, or exclusive short novella be made available.
That’s a more suitable pink spoon and much sounder long-term branding strategy.
Jessi
Not counting the free novella tie-ins, and other odds and ends, I’ve downloaded seven free Kindle e-books to my computer and read four of them. It is highly unlikely that I would have ever purchased any of them. About half of them are ones I wouldn’t have even checked out of the library. I just wanted to have a few books for a rainy day.
When I download free e-books, I always read the free sample before downloading the book. I won’t get a book without reading some of it first and many of the free books don’t interest me or are poorly written.
I have never paid for an e-book because I don’t have an e-reader, I want to be able to share the book with family and friends, and the books I want normally aren’t much cheaper in e-book format.
In the case of one book, I read the free preview, loved it, and downloaded the free book. My brother and I both loved the book so I recently purchased the next book in the series. (I didn’t buy the e-book version of the second book but the real paperback version.) I never would have paid for the first book so the free e-book did cause me to buy the second book. (And if I like the second book, I might get more books in that series.)
Over the years, I have gotten very picky about what books I will pay for, mainly because I can check the books out of libraries. However, like the case with the free e-book, there are times I will purchase a book because I fell in love with the author after checking some of their books out at the library.
For an author who has a series, I think making the first book of the series free for download might help new readers discover the series.
PatriciaW
I’ve downloaded numerous free ebooks, some classics, but mostly recent titles. Most are titles I was aware of when they were initially released and now are in the author’s backlist or out of print.
Since I don’t have an ereader yet, I’m hedging my bets, downloading to both the Kindle for PC and Nook PC apps. I actually have read a few of them, although I think I’m downloading faster than I can read, especially since I continue to have physical books. It’s kind of like building my own virtual library, customized to my tastes. Will I read everything? Probably not. But when I want to read something, I can browse what I have and pick something I might not otherwise have read.
I just purchased my first ebook today, a recent title of an author I already enjoy. I suspect I’ll buy more titles after I buy an ereader. But I’ll definitely be picky about price. Will be unlikely that I’ll pay $10 for an ebook.
Kristen Lowery
I’ve “purchased” probably about 75 free e-books since I got my kindle in January. They have all either been from an Author or Publishing House I am already familiar with. That being said, I have probably purchased 5-10 books because of those downloads.
My problem is time to read them. I’m a Christian fiction book review blogger, so I already read about three soon to be released or just released books/week for review. While I’m willing to read and review stuff that’s been on the market longer, I need to give precedence to the books publishers are requesting reviews for. So my pile of free, unread books keeps growing and growing and growing…
http://readgreatfiction.wordpress.com
Jamal Webster
I want to do a freebie with my first book.and hybrid with the second.
Kristen Lowery
I’ve downloaded about 75 free e-books since I got my Kindle in January, but only from Authors or Publishing Houses that I am already familiar with. I’ve purchased 5-10 books as a direct result of these freebies.
My problem has been in time to read the books. I am a Christian fiction book review blogger, so I am already reading and reviewing about three “soon to be released” or “new releases” each week. I am willing to review older books, but the books the publishers are requesting reviews for have to come first. So…I have a Kindle with growing number of free books that I’m not sure when I’ll have time for.
http://readgreatfiction.wordpress.com
James L. Rubart
Janet asks,
“After awhile, will readers have their devices so crammed with free books that they never buy additional titles?” I say yes.
The quality of the free downloads is high. So why should readers pay for a great book when they can get a great one for free?
If there are four restaurants in town and all of them have excellent food, and one of them is giving away meals for free, it’s pretty tempting to bypass the one that charges and fill my belly at no charge.
Will readers be selective in what they download for free, or just mindlessly download?
Mindlessly download.
I’m curious about the percentage of books people download for free they end up reading. With so many good books out there at no charge my guess is it’s low.
When the idea first hit I liked it. My novel ROOMS was offered for free for two weeks in the spring of ’10 and I was the # 1 download in all of Kindle for 12 out of the 14 days. It created huge buzz for me as a debut author and I know it helped sell a lot of books. BUT that was last year when the idea was still relatively new.
Now with the glut of free product I think the idea is no longer valid and hurts sales for every author whether they’re offering free content or not.
Jim
Crystal Miller
Wow, this is right where I live right now. I have downloaded 12 pages of books (just the titles go on for 12 pages) on my Kindle and many of them were the free downloads. I was picky about it, though. I don’t think I’m a run-of-the-mill reader, but I do know that if I read a book I liked (I’m thinking of Julie Klassen’s books) I went ahead and bought the rest of the titles I hadn’t read yet because I love the convenience of getting them right now so I could keep reading a series or whatever.
There have been some titles I would have never bought but I was glad to try it for free. And there were some that I was glad I didn’t buy! There have been some titles I downloaded the free “taste” (a chapter for free) and ended up buying the ecopy.
This was something, though, I wondered about. I could see giving ecopies for book reviewers someday, so you wouldn’t be out for the print copy, but how to manage this is something I don’t see a solution for at this point.
I know as part of the contract an author will negotiate for so many free print copies–and this could get sticky either now or in the future–right?
It’s just so complicated. But I love having an ereader. I’ve read so many books on the computer and my Kindle is so much nicer, plus, the goal is to get fewer print books. Thanks for addressing this topic from the agent/author perspective. Your clients are fortunate to have someone on the cutting edge of this topic.
Barbara
My iPad is new, so I’ve had fun “stocking” its shelves, some with free books and some I’ve paid for. I love the ease with which I can add a book. The other day my sister was talking about a book and author I didn’t know and in seconds I had the book on my kindle app. (It was not free, but priced modestly) I haven’t read it yet, but there is a very good chance I would not have purchased it had I waited to find it in a book store. (I would have forgotten the author’s name or title of his book.) Now that I have it, I’ll remember both and if its a good read, I’ll buy more.
James Scott Bell
Great question, Janet. I’ve never liked the free e-book idea. I think it slightly devalues the book. Make it 99¢, but make it something. Readers can download a free sample already, which makes much more sense. If they like it, they can order the whole thing.
That’s what I see as my writer’s task: write an opening the readers won’t want to put down. They can get that much for free.
I will have a series coming out later this year, six books. I’m thinking of pricing the first one at 99¢, as an inducement to get into it. I don’t know if I’ll keep that price forever, but it does make certain sense to me from a marketing perspective. I don’t think free would make it seem as worthy.
As a reader, I have a certain vibe about free e-books that is slightly negative. That’s not scientific marketing data by any means, so file it under “just sayin’.”
julie carobini
Hi Janet, As you know, my newest release, Fade to Blue, is being offered on Amazon for 99cents (part of their sunshine deals). I don’t know how or if it has affected Fade’s paperback sales, but I have seen an uptick in sales for my other four titles. Good news 🙂
Piggybacking on what Jim said, I wouldn’t mind seeing my previous book offered at a low price (or maybe even for free). For instance, if readers could download A Shore Thing (Otter Bay #2) for free or low cost, maybe they’d find they want to pick up the next book (Fade to Blue). I wonder if any publishers have tried this and how that has worked.
Suzanne
I LOVE free e-books and download any I think I might possibly like, so I have well over 300. I am a voracious reader and have read over 30 of these books in the 5 months I’ve had my Kinde–more than 1 a week.
I have only purchased a few books because of the free ebooks I’ve read, but before you use this to justify that giving books away doesn’t work, listen to a few other things:
1) I most likely would have read NONE of these books (and none of these authors) if their books hadn’t been free.
2) Even if these books had been recommended to me, I probably would have checked them out of the library and only bought them if I REALLY liked them.
3) The reason I haven’t bought more books by authors of e-books is because their other e-books are priced too high IMHO. I simply won’t buy an e-book if it’s over about $5.50 and most sell between $8.00 and $13.00. I’m not even tempted.
You do make some excellent points though, and I thoroughly agree that an author must look at his or her situation before agreeing to offer a freebie. The books that I purchased were the second and third in a series. The first book pulled me in so much that I just had to read the remaining two. If that hadn’t been so, I might not have bought them. So there MUST be some connection from the free book to newer books available from the author.
Excellent article. I thoroughly enjoyed your evaluation. Thank you for sharing.
Janet Grant
What a fascinating cross-section of views on free e-books. Thanks, each of you, for your contributions.
Michael’s analogy with the pink Baskin Robbins spoon as opposed to a free scoop makes sense to me. And Jim Rubart rightly, I believe, recognizes free worked well for him as an author–a year ago. James, I’m with you that 99 cents for the first book in your series is a good marketing plan.
I realized, as I read each of your responses, that I’ve never downloaded a free book. I’ve bought all of Jane Austen’s works for 99 cents and read one the first novel she ever wrote but haven’t read any of the others on my Kindle.
Like many of you, my time to read for pleasure is so limited, I’m very focused in what I choose to read. I don’t want a bunch of free books by authors I’m not familiar with clogging up my Kindle; I’ll download sample chapters of books that I’m curious about and read those. If I like them, I’ll buy the book. Sometimes I know I want a certain title because it came highly recommended or I like that author’s previous titles. I seldom even look at how much I’m paying for the book–I’ve already made the biggest investment, which was my e-reader. Do I care if a book is $9 or $11? Nah. Price is zero incentive for me, especially since most e-books are the same price or less than a physical version of the book.
CarolM
First – Crystal – I got a free ecopy of Christine Lindsay’s Shadowed in Silk through her publisher for influencers. Don’t know how they set it up, but it downloaded onto my computer in .mobi format. I opened it with Kindle for PC and now that I have my Kindle [got it last week!] I emailed it to my Kindle’s address and am reading it there now. I’ve gotten several pdf influences with text in it and another Kindle one with my name actually at the top of each chapter as a ‘free to… for review’ thing.
So, Janet’s question…
I’ve not downloaded near as many as Michael, but I’m up to about 300 I think. Some of them are ones that my alloted book money wouldn’t allow me to purchase [so many books! so little cash!] I haven’t read many of them, but mostly that was because I was waiting for the actual Kindle to be in my hand [hate reading on the PC app]. I have bought others in the same series etc though. And ‘buying’ #1 in a good series as #3 is released? Yeah, I’d go buy the next two.
For me, it’s still mostly theoretical because I’ve just gotten the ereader device, but that’s how I see it happening. Plus my sister and I share an account* and I know I’ve introduced her to a number of authors – and she has a lot more in her ‘book budget’ than I do.
*For the record, we rarely end up with two paper copies of the same books intentionally. We share them. Always have.
Janet Grant
Suzanne, thanks for voicing your thoughts on freebies. While you explain that you wouldn’t have bought those books anyway but MIGHT have gone to library to read them, the library would have had to buy that book for you to access it. So, in essence, the free download still translates into a potential lost sale for the author.
Since I just confessed to not even looking at what price an e-book is selling for, I was surprised to see that your top limit is $5.50.
Do others of you have a top limit? How heavily do you weigh what an e-book is selling for in your decision to download it?
CarolM
I knew I had an example! Jill Eileen Smith’s Michael was free about the time Bathsheba came out. If I’d not bought all three paper copies already, I would certainly have bought Abigail and Bathsheba ebooks.
I think that’s how it’s supposed to work…?
CarolM
I knew I had an example! Jill Eileen Smith’s Michal was free about the time Bathsheba came out. If I’d not bought all three paper copies already, I would certainly have bought Abigail and Bathsheba ebooks.
I think that’s how it’s supposed to work…?
Suzanne
Very good point about the library, Janet.
My reasoning for not wanting to pay more than $5.50 for a book (and I’m probably going to get whacked for expressing it) is that there is very little expense put out by the publisher for the e-book I buy. For the print version, there’s the cost of the paper, the printing, shipping, and storage. There’s none of that for the e-book; they just send me a file. So, why should I pay almost as much for an e-book as I would for the print book?
Morgan L. Busse
I wonder if the down economy plays into how much people are willing to pay for an e-book. I myself will not pay more than about $5 for an e-book unless I know and love the author or the book comes with high recommendation. The reason? Due to cuts and losses with work, my book budget is very tight now. And I pretty sure I’m not the only one who has had to tighten the strings on extras (like book buying).
Erin Taylor Young
I have to confess, I love the freebies. I choose carefully what I download–mostly CBA–and I have about 100.
Freebies allow me to read authors I couldn’t otherwise read. As a writer, I need to be reading broadly, but I simply don’t have the money to buy all those books. My library does purchase some. I’m not above requesting it. But they don’t seem inclined to follow my every suggestion.
So for me, freebies are a huge help. And if I like the book, I can recommend it to my friends–many of whom have actual money. Maybe it’s not much of a return favor, but a little word of mouth never hurts.
Janet Grant
I totally get that a limited book budget can make freebies highly desirable. Better to read the book for free than not to read it at all.
Suzanne, you’re right, of course, that the publisher doesn’t have the same expenses in making an e-book available, but unless the book is being offered only as an e-book that publisher still is incurring all the expenses of creating a physical book and must find ways to get that money back plus, hopefully, a profit. In a sense, we’re supporting the continuation of physical books, the livelihood of authors, and the existence of publishers. We are patrons of the arts–and our writer friends.
Caroline
I’ve wondered about the marketing tactic of free ebooks. Thank you for explaining it so well here, Janet.
I don’t own an e-reader yet, so I haven’t downloaded free books that way. Any ebooks in the PDF format I’ve downloaded have been through winning blog giveaways. I’m with others, though, that I would like to see prices of ebooks be between $3-$8, rather than $10 or higher. I also see some value in offering a book for incredibly cheap (example: 99 cents) for a short time, or as an enticement to look at a series. Like buying a song on iTunes for 99 cents, I can see people feeling like they can spend at least that much.
Thank you for these thoughts, as well as those in the comments!
Lindsay A. Franklin
I think the ESV bible I downloaded is my only freebie thus far, though I use a NOOK not a Kindle, and NOOK seems to have fewer freebies.
I have purchased several low-cost e-books ($2.99-3.99), which are usually older installments in a series that has newer books in it (at higher prices). And I will absolutely pay more for the newer titles in the series if I like the discounted one, and especially if I think my blog readers will like to read a review on it. Assuming my book budget at the time will allow, of course.
I’m currently fiddling around with a novella that ties in with my WIP. Ultimately, I’d like to make it available as a free e-book download, though I’m a little early in the game for it at the moment. Got to sell the series first. 😉 But I look at it like the special features for the main attraction, which is the series itself. Like Michael said, adding value, not cheapening the brand, seems the smarter way to go.
Alex Adena
I’m going to throw another wrinkle into the free discussion. I’m a new author trying to build word of mouth for my upcoming novel, so I’m giving away 200+ copies of it at Library Thing. Am I losing a few sales? Absolutely. But I’m also gaining 200+ emails of readers that I can (1) politely ask to publicize the novel when it publishes and (2) alert them when my next novel comes out. These people are avid readers who want to help authors.
But after the giveaway ends, I’m charging 99 cents. It may not sound like much, but readers are more likely to take a chance at 99 cents. And maybe the second novel will be priced at $2.99 to take advantage of Amazon’s improved royalties at that price point …
Linda Sommerville
Janet,
Thank you so much for this timely and insightful post! And for the helpful string of comments by other readers/writers.
In thinking about free ebooks, I have a slightly different but related question: How will the Kindle library system affect ebook sales?
Not only is there currently a glut of free ebooks out there, but with the new library app, won’t that make it even more difficult for authors to sell ebooks? If a library only has to purchase the copy once, and then anyone can check it out – why would a reader want to actually buy their own copy?
CarolM
I read somewhere… I forget where – but a blog like Janet’s – industry insider type blog. Steve Laube maybe?
Anyway – the numbers I saw said that actual production costs of a book [the paper, ink, presses, etc], only amounts to about 12% of the production costs. The rest of it is editors, advances, electricity for the offices, all those other costs, plus a bit of profit eventually.
If that’s accurate, a 10-15% or so discount for an ebook would be about right for pricing. Does that sound about right to anyone else?
Janet Grant
CarolM, thanks for reminding all of us that it’s not just the creation of the physical book that is an expense to the publisher but also the editorial staff, marketing budget, running the office, and, oh, yeah, paying the author a little something.
Linda, how libraries interface with publishers (including Amazon) regarding e-books is a hotly-contested conversation. As with everything else connected to e-books, we don’t know where that will land. Many publishers are trying to hold libraries to a specified number of checkouts per e-book, and then the library would have to buy the book again (just as they would with a physical book). The bone of contention is how many times should a library be able to check out that e-book.
Bill Giovannetti
The mind boggles…
Thanks for taking up this question, Janet. Judging by responses, you’ve hit a nerve. Though I have downloaded scores of ebooks, I’ve only fully read about a dozen. For me, the free book is an incentive to try an author I would not otherwise have tried… and either I like that author or not. But at least they’re on my radar — no small feat in this crowded market.
My hunch is that having a whole bunch of books, some free, most not, is key. What good is giving away a book to stimulate a market for… nothing else?
I also wonder if giving away free AUDIOBOOKS can stimulate print/ebook sales.
Again, thank you for the provocative posts this week. Great stuff.
Amos Forcell
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Jamal Webster
I want to do a freebie with my first book.and hybrid with the second